<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.2" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Easy Answers to the Prison Problem</title>
	<link>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/</link>
	<description>University College London Libertarian Society - The Free Society</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2</generator>

	<item>
		<title>By: Oli Cooper</title>
		<link>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-15</link>
		<author>Oli Cooper</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-15</guid>
		<description>If one is agreed that taking drugs doesn't harm others, then, surely, by the same dint, one can also agree that dealing and trafficking do no harm, either.  If someone else agrees to purchase the drug, that's their choice, not a matter for the state.  By the process of mutual consent, value and utility - happiness - are created, which the state tries to put an end to by enforcing its point of view.

The statistic in question is simply for those that are incarcerated for those offences.  It is not for offences related to the drugs trade, but merely for the 'crimes' of taking, trafficking, or manufacturing controlled substances.  Thus, if one murders another person as part of a gang war, or steals to pay for drugs, those are classified under different activity groups, not within the 12,567 offneces cited above.  The actually immoral acts have already been deducted.

Indeed, by decriminalising drugs, those immoral acts will be reduced.  By criminalising drugs, it encourages violence and theft, forces drug dealers to associate in (as you correctly describe) murderous organisesd crime syndicates.  If one wants to see the potential effect, one only needs to ask how many times a GlaxoSmithKline employee has been murdered by a rival from AstraZeneca (or, before AZ's lawyers get on my case, vice versa).  The answer's none, and that's because their business is legal, not necessarily because it's moral.

By criminalising a moral act, one forces people to act immorally.  Drug dealers lose the deterrent to obey the just laws, and see no reason NOT to murder; drug users are forced to pay an exhorbitant premium on a substance little harder to manufacture than paracetemol, and have to steal to pay the bills; without legal recourse, the drug user is exposed to sub-standard produce, cut with rat poison.  If one is concerned by the murder, theft, and deceit associated with the drugs trade, the best way to stamp them out, and restore order to the streets, is to legalise the drugs now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one is agreed that taking drugs doesn&#8217;t harm others, then, surely, by the same dint, one can also agree that dealing and trafficking do no harm, either.  If someone else agrees to purchase the drug, that&#8217;s their choice, not a matter for the state.  By the process of mutual consent, value and utility - happiness - are created, which the state tries to put an end to by enforcing its point of view.</p>
<p>The statistic in question is simply for those that are incarcerated for those offences.  It is not for offences related to the drugs trade, but merely for the &#8216;crimes&#8217; of taking, trafficking, or manufacturing controlled substances.  Thus, if one murders another person as part of a gang war, or steals to pay for drugs, those are classified under different activity groups, not within the 12,567 offneces cited above.  The actually immoral acts have already been deducted.</p>
<p>Indeed, by decriminalising drugs, those immoral acts will be reduced.  By criminalising drugs, it encourages violence and theft, forces drug dealers to associate in (as you correctly describe) murderous organisesd crime syndicates.  If one wants to see the potential effect, one only needs to ask how many times a GlaxoSmithKline employee has been murdered by a rival from AstraZeneca (or, before AZ&#8217;s lawyers get on my case, vice versa).  The answer&#8217;s none, and that&#8217;s because their business is legal, not necessarily because it&#8217;s moral.</p>
<p>By criminalising a moral act, one forces people to act immorally.  Drug dealers lose the deterrent to obey the just laws, and see no reason NOT to murder; drug users are forced to pay an exhorbitant premium on a substance little harder to manufacture than paracetemol, and have to steal to pay the bills; without legal recourse, the drug user is exposed to sub-standard produce, cut with rat poison.  If one is concerned by the murder, theft, and deceit associated with the drugs trade, the best way to stamp them out, and restore order to the streets, is to legalise the drugs now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Squander Two</title>
		<link>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-14</link>
		<author>Squander Two</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-14</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&#62; 12,567 individuals are held at Her Majesty’s pleasure in England and Wales for ‘drug offences’ [sic.], none of which offend the basic liberties of other people.&lt;/i&gt;

I agree that drug-taking doesn't harm others and shouldn't be punished, but I imagine that some of those drug offences involve dealing and trafficking, not just using, and dealers and traffickers certainly do harm others, since they are involved in large and murderous organised crime syndicates.

That's not to say you're wrong, just that you need a more precise statistic to back up your argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&gt; 12,567 individuals are held at Her Majesty’s pleasure in England and Wales for ‘drug offences’ [sic.], none of which offend the basic liberties of other people.</i></p>
<p>I agree that drug-taking doesn&#8217;t harm others and shouldn&#8217;t be punished, but I imagine that some of those drug offences involve dealing and trafficking, not just using, and dealers and traffickers certainly do harm others, since they are involved in large and murderous organised crime syndicates.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to say you&#8217;re wrong, just that you need a more precise statistic to back up your argument.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Oli Cooper</title>
		<link>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-5</link>
		<author>Oli Cooper</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-5</guid>
		<description>I wasn't aware that a guy on an Internet message board was allowed to rule when an argument is ridiculous.  However, it's not that bad, as Mike Godwin didn't actually say anything of the sort, only that reference to Nazism becomes exponentially more likely as the length of a discussion increases.

Actually, the High-jacked Godwin's Law states, completely unsupported by any argument of itself, that comparison to fascism is false.  Ergo, it reinforces the belief, falsely-held by many in society, that fascism is defeated, never to return.  That is a lie, perpetrated and perpetuated by the state and its apologists (who make up the vast majority of society), to mask the parallels between fascism and unchecked statism.  That is a fallacy, and not the determinant of others'.

However, if you are quite unhappy with comparison to that evil, let me restate the other comaprison to evil that I made: to the Taliban.  The term 'Taliban tendency', used to describe the Cornerstone Group and thousands of Conservatives that buy into its pernicious brand of statism, was coined not by a man behind a keyboard on an Internet message board, but by Alan Duncan, Shadow Secretary of State for Trade, Industry, and Energy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t aware that a guy on an Internet message board was allowed to rule when an argument is ridiculous.  However, it&#8217;s not that bad, as Mike Godwin didn&#8217;t actually say anything of the sort, only that reference to Nazism becomes exponentially more likely as the length of a discussion increases.</p>
<p>Actually, the High-jacked Godwin&#8217;s Law states, completely unsupported by any argument of itself, that comparison to fascism is false.  Ergo, it reinforces the belief, falsely-held by many in society, that fascism is defeated, never to return.  That is a lie, perpetrated and perpetuated by the state and its apologists (who make up the vast majority of society), to mask the parallels between fascism and unchecked statism.  That is a fallacy, and not the determinant of others&#8217;.</p>
<p>However, if you are quite unhappy with comparison to that evil, let me restate the other comaprison to evil that I made: to the Taliban.  The term &#8216;Taliban tendency&#8217;, used to describe the Cornerstone Group and thousands of Conservatives that buy into its pernicious brand of statism, was coined not by a man behind a keyboard on an Internet message board, but by Alan Duncan, Shadow Secretary of State for Trade, Industry, and Energy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: SpudHead</title>
		<link>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-4</link>
		<author>SpudHead</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.ucllibertarians.com/2007/06/19/easy-answers-to-the-prison-problem/#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Bollocks!  'Kinder, Kuche, Kircher', you know that Godwins law makes your argument ridiculous before you've even explained yourself.  Bad show.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bollocks!  &#8216;Kinder, Kuche, Kircher&#8217;, you know that Godwins law makes your argument ridiculous before you&#8217;ve even explained yourself.  Bad show.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
